| system | User Sambhavi Chandrashekar has logged in. |
| system | User Joe Osawabine has logged in. |
| Deborah Hession | I have DVD copies of the CulturAll 1/2 hr show (Includes Livedescribe) that was produced by CHUM and aired on The Canadian Learning Television a couple weeks ago, if anyone wants a copy... |
| Joe Osawabine | hello |
| system | User Christine Staddon has logged in. |
| Carmen Branje | yeah I'd like a copy |
| system | User Faisal Anwar has logged in. |
| Carmen Branje | maybe everyone could state where they're from? |
| Cindy Schatkoski | The Banff New Media Institute |
| Joe Osawabine | De-ba-jeh-mu-jig Theatre Group |
| Cindy Schatkoski | I don't actually know how this works. Could somene tell me? |
| Carmen Branje | the chat? |
| Deborah Hession | Canadian Film Centre's Habitat New Media Lab (Action Pact project) |
| Joe Osawabine | I am wondering myself |
| system | User Vera Roberts has logged in. |
| system | User Deborah Fels has logged in. |
| Cindy Schatkoski | Well, no. The presentation part. |
| Deborah Fels | Hi everyone |
| Faisal Anwar | hello |
| Vera Roberts | Hi Deb |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Hi Deb |
| Deborah Fels | It is good to see so many people |
| Deborah Fels | thanks for attending |
| Deborah Fels | We want to begin by giving you a brief explanation of what we are up to |
| Cindy Schatkoski | Deborah, how does this work? |
| Deborah Fels | including the software that we have built |
| Carmen Branje | so anyone want to start? |
| Joe Osawabine | do we know how many people are suppose to be here.? |
| Deborah Fels | we did put up some notes for you to look at that may help fill in some. |
| Vera Roberts | It sounded like Deb was starting to me. Do you want open questions __ discussion now? |
| Cindy Schatkoski | ah, okay. are we supposed to be seeing anything or is this all via chat? |
| Joe Osawabine | perhaps we should wait until all participants are logged in, I know there are a few here from debaj that arent signed in yet |
| system | User Ron Berti has logged in. |
| system | User Faisal Anwar has logged in. |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Joe, all partners are invited, and we could let them join when possible |
| system | User Cindy Schatkoski has logged in. |
| Faisal Anwar | thats a good idea |
| Joe Osawabine | oh okay...so we should just begin then |
| Deborah Fels | Cindy, there isn't really any set structure |
| Deborah Fels | but we have some questions that we have posted to seed the discussion |
| Carmen Branje | throught out some questions . . . I'll be happy to answer |
| Deborah Fels | perhaps everyone can let us know what you want from this session |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Deb, can we take up the question about describing a play |
| system | User Ross Mayot has logged in. |
| Deborah Fels | So perhaps Carment can begin by giving a brief outline of what we are doing |
| Deborah Fels | as a beginning |
| Carmen Branje | maybe I can handle that, so you'd like to know how livedescribe would work for a live play like Hamlet? |
| Deborah Fels | sorry Carmen, I mean Carmen |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Yes, carmen |
| Carmen Branje | did everyone get a chance to take a look at the video demo? |
| Deborah Hession | yes idid |
| Deborah Fels | before we get to the play, I would like to give people an overview of what is happening |
| Carmen Branje | LiveDescribe is a total description package |
| Joe Osawabine | I'm sorry but I didn't |
| Vera Roberts | yes I saw the demo for the fashion show and am really curious about how to handle something with dialogue. |
| Carmen Branje | it does Post Production, Near-Live, and True Live description |
| Ross Mayot | Unfortunately, I have not yet looked at the video. |
| Cindy Schatkoski | no, where is the video available? |
| Christine Staddon | I looked at the demo but I am not quite sure how the software would be used 'live' |
| Carmen Branje | True live, where the audience is witnessing the event live |
| Vera Roberts | If folks want to look then they can go to the forums in another browser and still stay logged in to the chat. |
| Carmen Branje | the only thing the system can do |
| Faisal Anwar | yes, i did |
| Carmen Branje | is cut off the describers mic if dialog is detected |
| system | User Lindsay MacDonald has logged in. |
| Christine Staddon | That is what I meant by "live" |
| Deborah Fels | Cindy the video is in the demo section of the on-line notes |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Cindy, the video is part of the material put up under Live Describe |
| Carmen Branje | during Hamlet we are going to experienment with this system and test its viability |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Cindy, I suggest you open another browser window and log into ATutor to parallely see the material |
| Carmen Branje | Normally in post production |
| Carmen Branje | audio descrimiation is fairly straight forward |
| Carmen Branje | because the audio signals are very clean |
| Carmen Branje | but with true live events, there will be lots of ambient noise |
| Carmen Branje | it is unclear how livedescribe will react to this noise |
| Faisal Anwar | the software is interesting, but can you do live editing? |
| Carmen Branje | live editing? |
| Carmen Branje | you'd have to have pretty fast fingers for that ;) |
| Carmen Branje | we've taken a position that in live description you don't correct your mistakes |
| Carmen Branje | not enough time |
| Deborah Fels | the live part means that the show is in real-time and there wouldn't be enough time to do any editing |
| Deborah Fels | there is a similar problem with live captioning |
| Carmen Branje | so of course one of our research questions is what level of quality are people willing to put up with? |
| Carmen Branje | exactly |
| Carmen Branje | this is why live description is SOOOO hard |
| Carmen Branje | very high congnitive load |
| Vera Roberts | Would you be able to use LiveDescribe for a musical performance? |
| Carmen Branje | detailed knowledge of the subject that is being described is absolutely crucial |
| Vera Roberts | Sorry for the interruption, you can answer that later. |
| Carmen Branje | I don't really see live describe being a useful tool for a musical preformance? |
| Carmen Branje | as its main tool is the ability to discriminate dialog |
| Vera Roberts | Is it OK to continue with this digression on music? |
| Carmen Branje | main dialog from non-dialog |
| Carmen Branje | sure |
| Carmen Branje | a question might be . . . . |
| Carmen Branje | do you consider lyrics to be "dialog" |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Very hard to get event expert who can also describe, I guess |
| Carmen Branje | something you wouldn't want to describe over? |
| Vera Roberts | I understand the idea of LiveDescribe handling dialogue breaks but what about something like opera or a musical when there is pretty much always someone singing. |
| Carmen Branje | yes there are two major skillsets involved in live description |
| system | User Faisal Anwar has logged in. |
| Carmen Branje | again, I don't currently see a way to integrate live describe into a musical event |
| Deborah Fels | I noticed some of our other participants are not contributing |
| system | User Faisal Anwar has logged in. |
| Carmen Branje | the way I discriminate audio, detects singing as music for the most part |
| system | User Galen Scorer has logged in. |
| system | User Deborah Hession has logged in. |
| Carmen Branje | sorry if I'm hogging the chat :) |
| Deborah Fels | I wanted to make sure that everyone was comfortable with the terminology and the concepts |
| Cindy Schatkoski | sorry, i was just watching the video |
| Vera Roberts | OK, just a curiousity for me. Perhaps special software isn't needed for something like that. |
| Deborah Fels | is everyone ok with the notion of audio description |
| Carmen Branje | yeah that's what it looks like |
| Deborah Fels | and what that is? |
| Carmen Branje | might be overkill |
| Deborah Fels | Cindy, no problem |
| Carmen Branje | although there might be something else out there other than audio discrimination |
| system | User Faisal Anwar has logged out. |
| Carmen Branje | that could be incorporated into a software tool |
| Carmen Branje | maybe it could use other cues |
| Vera Roberts | "that" is a musical performance like opera or a musical. |
| Carmen Branje | like lights |
| Deborah Fels | The other think that we are working on is that description , whether live or not, should be part of the entertainment |
| Carmen Branje | manually imputted information |
| Cindy Schatkoski | where do you think audio description would be most useful? |
| Deborah Fels | sorry, I switched subjects |
| Carmen Branje | live description? or description in general?? |
| Deborah Fels | let me say, regarding musical performances in general |
| Cindy Schatkoski | live description. |
| Deborah Fels | is that they tend to be more sound based than other types of performances |
| Carmen Branje | I think live description has huge potential in theatre |
| Deborah Fels | However, that does not mean there are not interesting visual things happening that could be described |
| Vera Roberts | I think description should be part of the entertainment but perhaps should be optional for the audience. |
| Faisal Anwar | so whats the experience we are creating?? |
| Carmen Branje | it all depends on the show . . . |
| Deborah Fels | you are a very good question Faisal |
| Carmen Branje | i've been to some concerts that were very visually unappealing and description wouldn't have served any benefit |
| Carmen Branje | even something like the symphont |
| Cindy Schatkoski | i agree |
| Carmen Branje | ummm it looks like city tv is here? |
| Deborah Fels | our goal is to maintain the entertainment value of the show |
| Deborah Hession | Most of the music shows I go to these days have an enormous visual component to them |
| Carmen Branje | deb could you take over |
| Faisal Anwar | Is it information sharing tool or to generate experience? |
| Vera Roberts | Carmen, I really think that is not something that we can decide, especially if we are sighted. |
| Deborah Fels | yes, I will |
| Carmen Branje | vera, hold that thought, i'll be right back |
| Deborah Hession | What user testing has been done? |
| Deborah Fels | in the work that we have done so far on this question of information vs entertainment |
| Deborah Fels | we have found that people prefer being entertained over being informed for non-documentary/learning situations |
| Faisal Anwar | entertainment value, i think comes not only with sharing the information but also creating imagnition |
| Deborah Fels | agreed |
| Deborah Hession | so the desription has to be part performance |
| Deborah Fels | which is why we are trying to blend video description techniques with the more emotional play-by-play techniques used for sports |
| Christine Staddon | The fact that your testing says that people like to be entertained seems to lean toward artists/entertainers being the describers |
| Deborah Fels | Deborah, that is our thinking |
| Deborah Fels | it is part of the creative process |
| Cindy Schatkoski | are you concerned about the description being too objective - not leaving room for creating imagination? |
| Deborah Fels | and is creative in it own right |
| Deborah Fels | but blended with the rest of the show |
| Deborah Fels | the describer for the upcoming Hamlet is an actor |
| Deborah Fels | with a passion for Hamlet. |
| Deborah Fels | he is part of the Hamlet creative team, not a 3rd party coming in at a later time |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | So this is like a new art form |
| Deborah Fels | he is thinking about his description as a performance in its own right |
| Deborah Fels | Sam, perhaps |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | An event with its own description |
| Cindy Schatkoski | you mean he is going to rehearsals? |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | and your tool facilitates that |
| Deborah Fels | Cindy, actually yes |
| Faisal Anwar | make sense, but then you might loose the other side, which is how "the user" will connect with the feel and mood |
| Deborah Fels | not only is he going to rehearsals but also he is being directed by the director |
| Ron Berti | We have been looking at the tools and resource people for translation and description as co-creators of new works, so that there is a true integration of the tools |
| Deborah Fels | so that her vision is also realised in the description |
| Deborah Hession | so is the whole audience visually impaired |
| Cindy Schatkoski | that's great. do you think it's feasable to do this for every instance? |
| Deborah Fels | I do |
| Deborah Fels | think it is feasible as long as the creative team is on-board |
| Deborah Fels | however, because description is an intepretation, most creative people are very happy to include it |
| Deborah Fels | and take some control of it |
| Ron Berti | This means that our expectation is not that everyone in the audience has the same experience, or same story, or same message, just that everyone has a meaningful experience |
| Deborah Fels | Deborah, no there are sighted members as well |
| Deborah Fels | although a number of sighted individuals have been asking for head sets |
| Deborah Hession | i know i could use one for opera! |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Experience, I think Ron, is subjective, and LiveDescribe facilitates |
| Deborah Fels | Ron, I believe that they should be getting "the same message" as decided by the creative team |
| Deborah Fels | e.g., the director has been thinking extensively about how she wants her vision of the Hamlet expressed in the visual and auditory domain |
| Ron Berti | But its impossible for everyone to recieve the same message. |
| Deborah Fels | right which is why |
| Deborah Fels | it is about the message the director wants to convey |
| Deborah Fels | whether or not the audience interprets that way is another issue |
| Deborah Fels | but I think that part of the enjoyment of the show is being entertained |
| Vera Roberts | The describer is like Bell Canada--only responsible for wiring outside of the house :) |
| Deborah Fels | it si a difficult thing to try and measure |
| Faisal Anwar | the interface has some issues i think and also thats the back end of the software? what language you guys have used? Is it possible to connect the software with some other tool? |
| Deborah Fels | some asked about user studies |
| Ron Berti | I guess if your creation style uses a director, or sinlge voice or single point of view, that is possible. Many processes arent structured in this hierarchical way. |
| Deborah Fels | we are conducting interviews with as many of the audience for Hamlet as we can (signted and blind) |
| Deborah Fels | we did so with the Fashion Show as well. |
| Cindy Schatkoski | if a performance runs more than once, will a |
| Ross Mayot | What was the general view of the sighted members of the audience for the Fashion show? |
| Deborah Fels | Faisal, the software is being written in C# with Direct Show |
| Cindy Schatkoski | fresh description be used each time? |
| Deborah Fels | and yes I believe it could be connected to other tools |
| Deborah Fels | Ross, the sighted members of the Fashion Show audience who listened to the description unanimously enjoyed it |
| system | User Bill Shawanda has logged in. |
| Deborah Fels | they thought is helped them understand and enjoy what was being shown |
| Deborah Fels | since many people at that show did not have a fashion background |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | I was a sighted member at the Fashion Show, Ross, and I endorse Deb's statement |
| Deborah Fels | Cindy, yes that would be ideas |
| Deborah Fels | idea |
| Deborah Fels | sorry |
| Deborah Fels | just like you get from the actors themselves |
| system | User David Osawabine has logged in. |
| Faisal Anwar | i feel describer is not enough to create an experience |
| Cindy Schatkoski | yes, wow, what a lot of work! |
| Deborah Fels | Faisal, I think that is why having a domain expert is very important |
| Deborah Fels | they need that subject matter passion |
| Deborah Fels | and it sure comes across nicely when that happens |
| Deborah Fels | if you look at the Fashion Show, I think you can see what I mean |
| Deborah Fels | I don't think it is any more work than what an actor must do |
| Deborah Fels | actually I think it is less |
| Deborah Fels | we will have the Hamlet describer point of view on that soon |
| Deborah Fels | but it is still a very difficult task |
| Carmen Branje | hi, I'm back |
| Carmen Branje | with a video camera |
| Deborah Fels | takes lots of energy |
| Ross Mayot | Is the describer's intention to focus on the blind member in the audience as well as to provide expert insights for the sighted members? |
| Carmen Branje | smile everyone! |
| Deborah Hession | :) |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | How did you choose the describer for the fashion show, Deb? |
| Deborah Fels | :-) |
| Faisal Anwar | deboradh, what do you mean by domain expert? |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | :) |
| Deborah Fels | Ross, I think that the describer is meant to provide an interpretation of the visual events for a blind audience |
| Joe Osawabine | :) |
| Deborah Fels | however our thesis is that this should be entertaining as well |
| Deborah Fels | it is the entertainment part that I think sighted viewers enjoy |
| Deborah Fels | Sam, the fashion show describer was selected because she was a 4th year fashion student |
| Deborah Fels | who had produced the show in her 3rd year |
| Deborah Fels | so she knew how is worked. |
| Deborah Fels | she also had theatre training and was able to control her voice |
| Faisal Anwar | well, i see no's of different things here, experience through sounds, which could be so cool, describer has to be industry expert, not only about the show but also how to develop imaginations |
| Deborah Fels | and she loved with all her heart, fashion |
| Deborah Fels | yes, |
| Deborah Fels | she did participate in a video description workshop |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Could you share what the blind members at the fashion show had to say about the experience, Deb? |
| Deborah Fels | and was learning so made some mistakes that she probably would avoid if she did it again |
| Deborah Fels | but I will tell you that the blind audience certainly found her fun and didn't mind the errors at all |
| Cindy Schatkoski | i am just watching the fashion show clip now. very interesting! |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Do you see this becoming a professional skill, Deb? |
| Christine Staddon | I watched the Fashion Show clip and found it entertaining. I understand the software cuts off describers mic . Can you help me understand better how the software facilitated the description. |
| system | User David Osawabine has logged out. |
| Cindy Schatkoski | obviously the describer had a script in advance |
| Deborah Fels | I just wanted to say that we are also trying another new thing with Hamlet |
| Deborah Fels | this entire sound track is going to be broadcast on CIUT, a local radion station |
| Deborah Fels | as a radio-like drama |
| Deborah Fels | without the radio drama production part |
| Deborah Fels | Cindy, yes she had prepared notes |
| Deborah Fels | not a script |
| Deborah Fels | she spent time speaking with the designers, getting their perspectives about their own collections |
| Cindy Schatkoski | it sounds good. |
| Ross Mayot | CLT is sending a producer with a camera to the rehearsal of Hamlet, so I'm looking forward to seeing how the experience works. I have to depart now but found this interesting. Bye. |
| Deborah Fels | we have just finished analyzing what parts of her script/notes she actually used |
| system | User Ross Mayot has logged out. |
| Faisal Anwar | but the question is if i close my eyes and then i listen to the describer, its not taking me any where, where the "experience" starts |
| Deborah Fels | and what parts were added/subtracted changed |
| system | User Chris Wemigwans has logged in. |
| Cindy Schatkoski | but it makes me wonder how this will work for something like hamlet when there is already spoken word as part of the performance |
| Deborah Hession | For maxmium audience appreciation of this, I see benefit for performances that even sighted people need assistance to understand |
| Deborah Hession | As in hamlet, it is difficult language to hear and understand for the average person |
| Deborah Fels | yes, I agree Cindy and Shakespear tends to have a lot of visual information described in the dialogue |
| Deborah Hession | Same with opera |
| Chris Wemigwans | hello all |
| Deborah Fels | yes, which is why I think people have been asking for headsets |
| Deborah Fels | Faisal, I don't have a good answer for you but we are going to try and measure |
| Deborah Fels | what people think about that |
| Deborah Fels | there really is nothing reported in the literature about audience reaction to the entertainment value of differen styles of description |
| Deborah Fels | or really what is missing from conventional forms |
| Deborah Hession | A create Cole's Notes, if you will |
| Deborah Hession | creative |
| Deborah Fels | right |
| Deborah Fels | but a real-time version I suppose |
| system | User Chris Wemigwans has logged in. |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Hi Chris |
| Deborah Fels | although you get the full dialogue |
| Deborah Fels | one of the interesting things with Hamlet is that the set is based on Esher |
| Deborah Fels | and creates a visual illusion |
| Chris Wemigwans | hey jo, you out there |
| Chris Wemigwans | hi sam |
| Deborah Fels | the director and describer have been working on an auditory equivalent |
| Deborah Fels | we are also having a touch tour before the performance |
| Deborah Fels | so that people can go on stage and hear the sound from different parts of the set |
| Deborah Fels | and perhaps feel the illusion |
| Joe Osawabine | hi Chris |
| Deborah Hession | I like that layer. |
| Deborah Fels | and I understand the fight scenes are quite visually dramatic |
| Chris Wemigwans | hey bill, what do you think abou this |
| Deborah Hession | I went to the Opera and they had red LED board with subtitles translating the Italian |
| system | User Bill Shawanda has logged in. |
| Deborah Hession | And and LED board didn't go with the costumes |
| Ron Berti | hi Joe and Chris. Catherine and Bruce are here with me |
| Deborah Fels | yes, this is common at the opera |
| Deborah Fels | hi all |
| Vera Roberts | Deb, what is Esher? |
| Deborah Fels | sorry, Esher is a lithographic artist |
| Deborah Fels | from the early 20s (I think) who drew visual illusions |
| Deborah Fels | One famous drawing is the "hands-drawing-hands" |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Ron, I do hope all of you were able to look at the fashion show and Carmen's movie |
| Bill Shawanda | usually repeated surreal imagery |
| Chris Wemigwans | oh hello Ron, and Cath and Bruce |
| Vera Roberts | Ah yes, I know what you are talking about. |
| Bill Shawanda | he isalso known for his stairwell illustrations |
| Deborah Hession | or the neverending staircases |
| Ron Berti | We have all seen the fashion show only |
| Deborah Fels | sorry can't spell Escher |
| Deborah Fels | see http://www.mcescher.com/ |
| Vera Roberts | a google image search for those interested in Esher http://images.google.ca/images?q=esher__hl=en__lr=__sa=X__oi=images__ct=title |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | That's cool, Bill, I hear that |
| Bill Shawanda | hi sam!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| Deborah Fels | right |
| Deborah Fels | so you can imagine how difficult something like an Escher set will be for the describer |
| Christine Staddon | The accessibility project I work on positions the idea that being accessible opens your business to all not just people using wheelchairs.... |
| Deborah Fels | not just for the set but for how is works with the play |
| Deborah Fels | Christine |
| Deborah Fels | Ron, at the moment that is all we have |
| Deborah Fels | but we will have Hamlet in a couple of weeks |
| Christine Staddon | Do you think there is a business case for inclusion since more than people who are blind benefit from description |
| Deborah Fels | and some data relating to audience reaction |
| Deborah Fels | Christine, I think that there is definitely a business case |
| Deborah Fels | especially if the audio-only version can be used elsewhere |
| Faisal Anwar | you might need to see and revirse the fashion show, imagine if there is a fashion show for blind users ? |
| Ron Berti | Excellent We look forward to the Hamlet results |
| system | User David Osawabine has logged in. |
| Deborah Fels | such as on the radio or as an audio-only product (e.g., like audio books) |
| Deborah Hession | podcast |
| Deborah Fels | Faisal, do you mean blind designers |
| Deborah Fels | or blind audiences? |
| Deborah Fels | podcast too |
| system | User Owen Milburn has logged in. |
| Deborah Fels | people have been requesting soap operas to be done this way |
| Carmen Branje | hey folks, i'm back |
| Deborah Fels | but this workshop is about the live stuff rather than any programmed stuff :-) |
| Carmen Branje | just talked to pauline from canadian learning channel? about description and livedescribe |
| Deborah Fels | one of the questions that the fashion students and faculty had for me was |
| Deborah Fels | why would someone who is blind be interested in fashion as an audience member or as a designer |
| Cindy Schatkoski | good question |
| Bill Shawanda | why not? |
| Carmen Branje | well they might not have started life being blind? |
| Ron Berti | How can you ask that? |
| Deborah Hession | that assumes blind people aren't interested in fashion |
| Deborah Fels | Bill that was my answer |
| Ron Berti | Why wouldnt they be interested? |
| Faisal Anwar | i mean both.... |
| Vera Roberts | Don't they know that people who are blind where clothing? |
| Deborah Hession | fabric and fashion is a tactile body experience also |
| Carmen Branje | clothing are for people looking at the person wearing it, not the person wearing it |
| Deborah Fels | I think that there is a lot of education that we need to do with the cultural industries |
| Deborah Fels | regarding this very concept |
| Deborah Hession | I feel different in track pants than I do in a gown |
| Chris Wemigwans | brucew says"because they are intrested in fashion" |
| Owen Milburn | that's what i was thinking. could textures be described? |
| Carmen Branje | blind people might still want to appear stylish? |
| Deborah Fels | I have just spoken with another director who thought that having video description would ruin her whole show |
| Deborah Fels | she couldn't imagine doing something like this |
| Carmen Branje | what type of show was it? |
| Deborah Fels | and she also said the "blind people have been to my show and seemed to like it" |
| Vera Roberts | Deb, this director sounds like a tough case. |
| Carmen Branje | I'm sure when a director asks about the quality of the show, people are perfectly honest . . . . . |
| Deborah Fels | it is a historical drama |
| Deborah Fels | they do lots of lighting effects for mood |
| Carmen Branje | historical drama??? that would be perfect for description |
| Deborah Fels | yes, I thought so as well |
| Owen Milburn | i think it would be a real challenge to describe everything in the show, as there are so many visual elements |
| Faisal Anwar | i think we all humans regardless to our physcal condition, wants and love to entertain ourselves and if there is good content (audio/video) it helps to motivate |
| Owen Milburn | lighting. etc. |
| Deborah Fels | but at the moment while we are still trying to figure things out |
| Deborah Fels | best not to try and work with someone who really doesn't see value in it |
| Carmen Branje | indeed! |
| Faisal Anwar | The describer tool is a good starting point... but i think its not enough |
| Deborah Fels | Faisal, I agree |
| Vera Roberts | Yes, Deb, I see your point although the resistance surprises me. |
| Carmen Branje | in the states some theatres have been experimenting with pre-recording live description |
| Carmen Branje | that is cued by lighting |
| Deborah Fels | Owen you are correct. As a result video description is an interpretation, not an auditory copy |
| Deborah Fels | the pre-recorded type of video description is only viable for long running shows |
| Carmen Branje | I think things like that, that reduce cost and labour are going to be very attractive to people who puts shows like this on |
| Deborah Fels | and you miss the "live" element that you normally expect when you go see live theatre |
| Christine Staddon | I agree education is key. Many businesses still think creating access is an aulturistic not that it will attract more customers. Same for enhancing the experience attracting a large audience |
| Deborah Fels | but I think it is worth experimenting with |
| Deborah Fels | ah, the reseacher can't help it. |
| Carmen Branje | that's true deb, but I bet long running shows make up a huge percentage of the threatre that people watch |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | I guess research is always way ahead of adoption |
| Deborah Fels | yes, but people still go to the theatre for the live experience |
| Deborah Fels | that is very different from the "pre-recorded" version |
| Deborah Fels | well I think research is allowed to make mistakes |
| Deborah Fels | and nobody gets too upset |
| Deborah Fels | but when you pay for entertainment I think people want a postivie experience |
| Deborah Fels | sorry, I mean positive |
| Faisal Anwar | there are few theatre companies in toronto too who are explore the different experience iun thetare setting |
| Owen Milburn | what sort of experiences? |
| Deborah Fels | yes, Faisal, anybody you know wants to try video description? |
| Deborah Hession | Young People's Player's might |
| Deborah Fels | they have to be willing to nominate a domain expert |
| Carmen Branje | yes the expert is really the only difficult part of livedescription |
| Deborah Fels | because we think this is so crucial |
| Deborah Fels | some asked about domain expert |
| Carmen Branje | the technology aspect is simple |
| Deborah Hession | I think they would have the appreciation to consider |
| Deborah Fels | I really mean someone who is familiar with the play and the performaners |
| Deborah Fels | sorry performers |
| Deborah Fels | the assistant director, for instance |
| Deborah Fels | or an actor in the company or tryout who isn't in the perfomance |
| Carmen Branje | or even an additional "actor" |
| Faisal Anwar | well, i personally sould love to try it out, i am doing lot of real-time theatre work |
| Deborah Fels | yes, I do too |
| Deborah Fels | Faisal, wonderful |
| Deborah Fels | when do you want to start :-) |
| Deborah Fels | what about our participants from Debaj? |
| Deborah Fels | thoughts = ? |
| Ron Berti | yes, we do too, but our emphasis has been on creating inclussively from the outset, which as an original creation company we can do. |
| Deborah Fels | sometimes it is difficult to get it all in |
| Deborah Fels | that is great |
| Deborah Fels | to think about it at the beginning |
| Deborah Fels | I think that is what we have done with Hamlet as well |
| Joe Osawabine | yes as opposed to trying to add it on after the creation |
| Faisal Anwar | i think in mid of dec |
| Deborah Fels | The advantage of Shakespear is that in his day |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Ron, LiveDescribe can be used for creating art inclusively from the outset |
| Deborah Fels | plays were done with out any visual effects |
| Deborah Fels | really |
| Ron Berti | to think about translation tools as theatrical conventions |
| Deborah Fels | so there is a lot of visual content in the script itself |
| Deborah Fels | yes, I agree |
| Deborah Hession | It's really important to consider at the beginning, so it isn't subtext, but integrated as part of the performance |
| Deborah Fels | I agree |
| Deborah Fels | which is why we purport that it be part of the creative process |
| Deborah Fels | not just something that is done at the end |
| Joe Osawabine | has anybody here seen any of the pieces that were created on the "Stretch" project |
| Cindy Schatkoski | no, sorry, i haven't |
| Vera Roberts | This has been a really interesting discussion, I'm looking forward to hearing about liveDescribe of the new partnerships that have started in this chat. I'll "see" you next week. |
| Deborah Fels | I have |
| Deborah Fels | but I am not too vision impaired so it is difficult for me to assess correctly |
| Deborah Fels | did you collect any data from audiences with disabilities? |
| Deborah Fels | bye vera |
| Joe Osawabine | I was just wondering because they are perfect example of the work we have done creating inclusively from the offset and not trying to integrated elements of inclusion after the fact |
| Owen Milburn | it sonds like there could be some interesting potential in creating live theatre that is accessible to the visually impaired. |
| Deborah Fels | BTW I liked the pieces and was very entertained |
| Deborah Fels | yes, I think so |
| Deborah Fels | Joe, the Glenvale players are all blind actors that put on live theatre as well |
| Deborah Fels | and they take an auditory perspective on their work |
| Faisal Anwar | ok, guys, i have to go now, nice talking to you... there are some good points we discussed and it feels good that now we are moving into theatre setting for thinking about accessibility in sharing |
| Faisal Anwar | experience, i will see you next week |
| Owen Milburn | i think tacking on a visual description at the end seems kind of a band aid. creating a new type of theatre seems far more interesting to me. |
| Deborah Fels | bye Faisal I hope we talk more |
| Joe Osawabine | yes I agree |
| Deborah Fels | agreed owen |
| Ron Berti | We think it is possible and feasible to approach inclusive creation such that only certain elements of the show speak to certain audience members - in their 'cultural' modality. |
| Deborah Fels | but I also think that we have lots of work to do to convince directors that this is a worthwhile thing to do |
| Faisal Anwar | we will talk more, you can email me too @
This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
|
| Deborah Fels | and that it only adds, not detracts from their original ideas |
| system | User Faisal Anwar has logged out. |
| Deborah Hession | depends what the show's bottom line is |
| Owen Milburn | that sounds very interesting. so everyone would have parts that "speak" to them, and parts that do not? |
| Christine Staddon | Deb, hopefully creating things like Hamlet as best practices will help you convice more directors. |
| Ron Berti | Yes, exactly! |
| Deborah Fels | yeah, I hope so |
| Deborah Hession | yes more examples are good |
| Deborah Fels | the describer for the show is at OISE to be a performing arts teacher |
| Ron Berti | Again, we cannot all have the same experience, so lets just focus on everyone having a rich experience. |
| Deborah Fels | I am hoping his experience will translate into some new teaching processes |
| Deborah Fels | Ron, you make a very good point |
| Deborah Fels | and one that I think should be debated with all of the players involved in video description |
| Deborah Fels | because does accessiblity mean access to the "information" or does it mean access to a "rich enteraiment experience" |
| Deborah Fels | from our research people want the entertainment |
| Deborah Hession | accessibility to the culture |
| Joe Osawabine | there is a place for both |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Video description has been very helpful and live description just follows |
| Deborah Fels | in general but there are some who want the information |
| Deborah Hession | to the artist intent |
| Deborah Fels | there is a place for both but there are also tradeoffs |
| Owen Milburn | exactly. i think there are ways to make the experince rich, even if the specific information isn't being conveyed |
| Deborah Fels | Owen, that is where we are at in our research |
| Deborah Fels | but it also puts a spin on the information that makes it more subjective |
| Joe Osawabine | but I think people generally go to the theatre to be entertained so there should also be some entertainment value in the audio description |
| Owen Milburn | like right |
| Owen Milburn | oops |
| Deborah Fels | I think that that is part of the entertainment but we also want to ensure that that is what people want out of it as well |
| Deborah Fels | Joe, I think you are correct with that one |
| Deborah Fels | and people are generally prepared to have less "accurate" information, whatever that means, in exchange for something entertaining |
| Deborah Fels | that is still "the show" |
| Deborah Fels | I think that having the emotional elements are a big part of the entertainment |
| Deborah Fels | people what to be moved |
| Deborah Fels | sorry, want to be moved |
| Deborah Fels | I think that is why the fashion show works |
| Owen Milburn | having an audio description seems to lack theatrical quality. my opinion |
| Cindy Schatkoski | i agree. i would rather have context than specifics. |
| Deborah Fels | because the describer added her personal emotional flare to it |
| Deborah Fels | Owen, I agree |
| Joe Osawabine | yes I agree...and if you create with accesability in mind from the word go....you can create inclusively |
| Deborah Fels | we have looked at this in programmed television |
| Deborah Fels | and have found exactly that, although we worked with comedy |
| Ron Berti | Sorry guys, I have to go. Look forward to more dialogue. |
| Deborah Fels | and are now trying to get other genres to see if this ideas can cut across genres |
| Deborah Hession | I must go also, thank you for sharing |
| Joe Osawabine | bye ron |
| Deborah Fels | bye Deborah and Ron |
| system | User Ron Berti has logged out. |
| David Osawabine | bye ron, thanks |
| Joe Osawabine | is there a place on this site that we can post comments and ideas as they arise |
| Deborah Fels | we probably need to finish up this discussion |
| system | User Deborah Hession has logged out. |
| Deborah Fels | as it is 4:30. |
| David Osawabine | bye all |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Thank you very much, Deb and Carmen for leading and thank you all, for this lively discussion. It is wonderful to see new partnerships and possibilities emerging. |
| Deborah Fels | I believe there is a forum setup for this workshop |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Have a great week, and we’ll meet here again next week same day same time. Bye and best. |
| Deborah Fels | under livedescribe for posting comments |
| system | User David Osawabine has logged out. |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | YEs, Joe |
| system | User Bill Shawanda has logged out. |
| Owen Milburn | goodbye everyone. talk to you next week |
| system | User Owen Milburn has logged out. |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Please post in the forums any time |
| Deborah Fels | if anyone would like to attend Hamlet, please let me know |
| Deborah Fels | we would love to have you |
| Deborah Fels | bye everyone talk to you next week |
| Christine Staddon | Thanks for the discussion. It is nice to get a better idea of what is being work. |
| Chris Wemigwans | ciao peoples |
| Joe Osawabine | okay...I will check in periodically to see what has been posted as well as post any ideas that might come up from De-ba-jeh-mu-jigs end of things |
| Christine Staddon | Bye everyone |
| Joe Osawabine | nice to cyber meet you all |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Deb, can I send out the Hamlet info to all in this group? |
| Deborah Fels | sure please do |
| Cindy Schatkoski | bye |
| Deborah Fels | I think that Smriti has done that |
| system | User Cindy Schatkoski has logged out. |
| Joe Osawabine | also one other question |
| Deborah Fels | perhaps check with her |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Thank you CIndy for making it |
| Deborah Fels | go ahead Joe |
| Joe Osawabine | is this conversation from today going to be posted anywhere? |
| system | User Deborah Hession has logged in. |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | The transcript will be available on this website, Joe |
| Deborah Fels | Sam? |
| Carmen Branje | hey Deborah H? |
| Carmen Branje | you mentioned something about a dvd? |
| system | User Christine Staddon has logged out. |
| Deborah Fels | great. thanks |
| Joe Osawabine | okay great |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Yes, Deb? |
| Joe Osawabine | I will look for it...I |
| Joe Osawabine | over and out |
| system | User Joe Osawabine has logged out. |
| Deborah Fels | bye Joe thanks for your thoughts |
| Deborah Fels | they were great |
| Deborah Fels | sorry, Sam I was just wondering if you were still here |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | YEs I am |
| Deborah Fels | thanks for facilitating the session |
| Deborah Fels | I think it was fun |
| Deborah Fels | my hands are sore though |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | It was excellent, Deb |
| Deborah Fels | :-) |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | I think it was because of your ability to take it thru |
| Deborah Fels | I will be helping Jonas next week as well |
| Deborah Fels | I guess |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | That would be wonderful, thanks again |
| Deborah Fels | ok talk to you later |
| system | User Deborah Fels has logged out. |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Sorry about your hands :( |
| system | User Sambhavi Chandrashekar has logged out. |
| system | User has been logged out due to inactivity. |
| system | User Vera Roberts has been logged out due to inactivity. |
