Menu Content/Inhalt
Event - Audio Description from Programmed Television Chat Transcript from CulturAll Online Summit

Chat held on November 15, 2006 using a ATutor

Audio Description - Culturall Online Transcript

Transcript Start: 2006-Nov-15 14:57

Transcript End: 2006-Nov-15 16:30

systemUser Sambhavi Chandrashekar has logged in.
systemUser Bruce Naokwegijig has logged in.
Sambhavi ChandrashekarHi Bruce!
Bruce Naokwegijighello everybody
Sambhavi ChandrashekarWelcome, Bruce
systemUser Anastasia Cheetham has logged in.
systemUser Deborah Fels has logged in.
systemUser Deborah Fels has logged in.
Deborah FelsHi there and welcome
systemUser Faisal Anwar has logged in.
Deborah Felsthanks sam for putting up the chat
Faisal Anwarhello
Deborah Felsgood to see so many people here
Deborah FelsJonas is just being interviewed but he will be here momentarily
Sambhavi ChandrashekarYou are welcome, Deb!
Cindy Schatkoskihello
Sambhavi ChandrashekarHi Cindy
systemUser Deborah Hession has logged in.
Deborah Hessionello
systemUser Jennison Asuncion has logged in.
Sambhavi ChandrashekarHi Debbie and Faisal, good to see you participating from Banff
Sambhavi ChandrashekarHi Jennison
systemUser Vera Roberts has logged in.
Deborah HessionThanks, it's great to have a chat room with a view..haha
systemUser Jonas Diamond has logged in.
Sambhavi ChandrashekarHi Jonas
Jennison AsuncionHello, Just getting use to using JAWS in this dynamic environment ;-)
Jonas DiamondGood to see everyone. Lets get started.
Deborah FelsDid everyone get a chance to look at the content that we posted?
Sambhavi ChandrashekarYes
Deborah HessionYes
Faisal Anwaryes, briefly
Deborah FelsIf you didn't we posted up a couple of links to sample clips that we have been working with
Bruce NaokwegijigI'm still trying to get it.
Deborah Felsthese clips contain examples of video description in 3rd person and 1st person
Sambhavi ChandrashekarLike I wrote, everyone can even now open ATutor in another browser window and have a look
Deborah Felsalso in the previous workshop, we did a screen movie of the software used
Deborah Felsthis software can be used in a live and production environment
Deborah FelsWe also posted the process that we have been exploring
Sambhavi ChandrashekarDo you mean you used the same software for both Live Describe and Audio Description of video?
Deborah Felsbecause Smiley Guy Studios is producing the video description in house
Cindy Schatkoskii can see why first person would be much more difficult
Deborah Felswhat this means is that they have control over who writes the script
Cindy Schatkoskii did like it better though
Deborah Felshow it is recorded and produced.
Deborah Felsthe other really important benefit is that the video description track
systemUser Smriti Dev has logged in.
Deborah Felsis mixed with the original audio track in the master mix
Deborah Felsthat means that volume levels are controlled for all audio sources
Cindy Schatkoskioh, so it can't be pulled out?
Cindy Schatkoskiyes
Deborah FelsCindy, no they are still separate audio tracks
Deborah Felsbut the mix is done at the master so that quality is
Deborah Felscontrolled there
Deborah Felsnormally video description that is done after the show is made is added onto a copy of the master
Deborah Felsand this makes audio level control more difficult
Deborah Felsdoes that make sense?
Deborah Hessionyes
Cindy Schatkoskiyes, i understand
Jonas Diamondthe real key is we control the script and voice
systemUser Chris Wemigwans has logged in.
Deborah Felsin addition because audio description is interpreted
Deborah Felssomeone must decide what stay in and what goes
Deborah Felswe think that this is best done by the creative team with content knowledge and expertise on what they are trying to convey to an audience
Faisal Anwarthats where the challange starts
Cindy Schatkoskii would agree
Deborah Felsa third party is really taking educated guesses
Deborah Hessioni absolutely agree with this
Jonas Diamondhowever, adding this layer of production to the schedule has posed problems
Cindy Schatkoskiyes, this is much different than the live description because that is more 'factual'
Deborah HessionIt's a big can of worms
Faisal Anwarbut i would say this is much easier as its happening in post production
Deborah HessionBecause what you are trying to do is provide sound dimension
Deborah HessionAnd this doesn't end at dialogue, or a quick story of the set and setting
Deborah Hessionindeed, faisal
Sambhavi ChandrashekarIs it easier to do third person than first person?
Jonas DiamondAlso ensuring the intent of the DV script is the same as the original writer is difficult
Jonas DiamondYes it is. When you add in the real talent you are stepping more in to the fictional world and want to keep it in line with the program
Jonas DiamondThe other problem is this is so new the unions don't understand it
Sambhavi ChandrashekarIt is interesting to note that people prefer entertainment to more factual description
Faisal Anwari feel there is a limitation in a software where you can or cannot do certain things in creative ways
Jonas DiamondI think it depends on the genre of program but people like to be entertained!
systemUser Jennison Asuncion has logged in.
Jonas DiamondIt's not the software as much as the writing, recording, editing and mixing
Deborah HessionPerhaps with a factual description, the audience must then "translate" into the fiction space
Cindy Schatkoskii don't understand the union dilema: what's that about?
Deborah HessionWhile the entertaining version takes you right there
Sambhavi ChandrashekarI mean they thought first person was less believable but more entertaining
Jonas DiamondIf you work with union talent you have to work with ACTRA and they have set rates which are unaffordable
Jonas DiamondThere is also the writer's union, if the writer is WGC
Cindy Schatkoskiso in the third person option, the talent wouldn't have to be union?
Faisal Anwari have a question here, why there is a need to add audio description?
Jonas DiamondThat is correct. It could be anyone (with a good voice I hope)
Faisal Anwarregardless to first person or 2nd person
Jonas DiamondI think the unions are really going to miss out this opportunity with the new CRTC mandates for audio description
Deborah FelsFaisal you ask a good question
Deborah Felsmost producers do not consider what happens when you have an audio only track to listen
Deborah FelsI think that if you try and watch a show without the visuals, you miss a lot
Deborah Felshowever, that is what our subjects have told us
Jennison AsuncionSorry, I was crashed out of the chat. I just now listened to the demo of the fight scene with the female voice and the first-person. As someone who has taken advantage of voice description at movies,
Deborah Felsthat may not be true for everyone
Faisal Anwari saw the video,s they are very well designed and developed and have all the entertaining components
Deborah Felsif a show is made with an audio only audience in mind then it probably isn't necessary
Deborah Felsaka radio dramas
Faisal Anwarhere you go, so i think the voice over is still missing the visual description.
Faisal Anwarits not doing anything ACCEPT, adding some extra video noise... (i think)
Jennison Asuncionmy personal preference is the third-person description. It seemed less confusing since it was a different voice other than the actors.
Faisal Anwarsorry audio noise
Deborah Felsactually Faisal, I think that what is missing is the pieces of the narrative that are represented in only the visual domain
Deborah Felsand there is quite a bit of it these days
Faisal Anwaryeah i like it, its more casual, more creative
Deborah Felsit is not necessary the visual information itself but what it contributes to the unfolding of the story
Sambhavi ChandrashekarJennison, you have a good point there
Cindy Schatkoskii personally also thought that the third person was easier to understand
Jonas DiamondIt is completely subjective and that is what we've learned in our research
Deborah FelsJennison you have a reaction that some people have
Deborah Felsand one of the things that we really need to is a longitudinal study to see whether there is a change
Faisal Anwaryes, Deborah you are right, audience missing the experience
Deborah Felsover time
Jonas DiamondI think it depends where and why you are consuming the audio description
Deborah Felsmost people have only been exposed to 3rd person
Deborah HessionHave there been any considerations to expressing the "missing" visuals with additional sound effects, rather than description?
Deborah Felsand will find the 3rd person more trustworthy
Deborah Felsas a result
Deborah Felswe are not sure whether this is a function of the narrative form or of the conventions people know
Jonas DiamondWe tried creating a sound library but it just made the audio track even more confusing
Deborah FelsWe also want to try and understand what people think is entertaining
Deborah Felsa subject that we discussed last week but needs more discussion and thought
Deborah Felskind of a film studies thing
Deborah Felsbut one that is important
Deborah Hessionok i'd be interested to hear results of that discussion
Deborah Felswe also have the luxury and time to try and study some of these issues without the deadlines and pressure to deliver content
Jonas DiamondWe think as audio description the 3rd person works but as a potential standalone commercial product may need the added layer of storytelling that 1st person offers
Deborah Felsso people's opinions here are very, very valuable
systemUser Lindsay MacDonald has logged in.
Deborah HessionIn terms of audience testing, what was the environment?
Deborah FelsWhat Jonas is talking about is a potential business case for audio description
Deborah Felswhere a totally new product can be made available to all consumers
Jennison AsuncionOne of the challenges for folks like myself who are blind, if using the first-person is, this person speaking dialogue at the moment, or is that description?
Deborah Felsthat is the audio-only track that can be listened to in the car, subway, whatever
Faisal Anwarthats a good point,,, you are adding another content level on top of orginal script... wonder if you get the audio description from the same director
Deborah Felshowever, this must be entertaining
Jonas DiamondWe kind of wanted to make it seemless Jenn so you wouldn't know the difference
Jonas DiamondWe tried to have the same folks work on the description as the rest of the show but it is challenging schedule-wise
systemUser Chris Wemigwans has logged out.
Faisal Anwarright, other wise you guys should need to work with really good script writer/ entertainer
Deborah Felsand one that has been trained on each piece of content
Deborah HessionBut Jonas is saying that would cause union/budget issues
Jonas Diamondexactly Faisal. And that is where the unions factor in becuase the best are usually members
Deborah Felswhile the script writer/director/editor, etc of the show already have the intimate knowledge
Faisal Anwari mean, i feels... this comes down to the" person" who is adding this layer..
Faisal Anwari.c
Deborah FelsFaisal, there are at least 3 or 4 people involved
Faisal Anwarcan you get un-union members
Deborah Felsit is not usually only 1 person like it is for captioning
Jonas DiamondOf course. But most working actors/writers are in the union.
Deborah Felsunfortunately video description is rather bogged down by the model used by closed captioning
Jonas DiamondRight now, description is handled by 3rd party providers and they do not use union talent
Jennison AsuncionOne of the things I like about audio desc in theaters is the ability to shut it off by taking off the headphones and putting them back on, when I need describing. Is the on/off functionality built-in
Deborah FelsI think we are trying to find ways to avoid that
Deborah Felsbecause video description is interpreted
Faisal Anwarso its more like a logistic issues, rather then a program??
Deborah FelsJenn, you can do that on TV as well
Sambhavi ChandrashekarHow does use of first person impact rights and ownership?
Deborah FelsFaisal it is not really only logistics
Deborah Felsit is business (financial), creative and logistics
systemUser Chris Wemigwans has logged in.
Deborah FelsSam, that is a good question
Deborah Felsand one that must be addressed carefully
Deborah Felsfirst person may be a separate character giving his/her own perspective
Deborah Felsthe 3rd person option has the same issues but no one has been paying attention
Deborah Felsbecuase it has been farmed out like closed captioning
Jonas DiamondWith non-union talent
Deborah Felsanastasia any thoughts?
Deborah HessionI'm interested in participating is future testing, in particular on the ipod platform
Deborah Felsor bruce?
Deborah Felsah, Deborah this is wonderful
Deborah Felsas part of the Culturall project we will be making a set of
Deborah Fels1st person versions of 3 shows
Faisal Anwaris this a user perference to select first person or 3rd person ?
Deborah Felsand delivering them as podcasts, etc.
Deborah FelsI want to run a long term study for people to spend some time with the content and video description style
Deborah HessionGreat...include me please
Deborah Felsfor the study, Faisal, there will be both available
Deborah Felsand we will have people in both groups and see how they fair
Deborah Felsone of the things that we are working on is figuring out the method
Anastasia CheethamI think software to allow peer description is great as a tool to increase the amount of description out ther
Faisal Anwarinteresting..
Deborah Felsto test people
Deborah Felsso far researchers have used multiple choice tests
Deborah HessionIs it a "contest" to find out which way to choose, or to explore always having both (or both!)
Jennison AsuncionI too would be interested in helping out, if it would be useful.
Deborah Felsdeveloped by sighted people
Cindy Schatkoskiit would be a very subjective test
systemUser Owen Milburn has logged in.
Deborah FelsI have a problem with multiple choice tests
Deborah Felsand test that have been developed by sighted people
Deborah Felswe have used methodologies that are more like usability testing processes
Deborah Felsrather than trying to test people
Deborah Felsgood idea deborah
Deborah FelsI am quite curious about the entertainment aspect
Deborah Felsas well
Deborah Felsbecause Odd Job Jack is about entertainment
Deborah Felsrather than information
Faisal Anwaryes
Deborah FelsAnastasia brought up the peer description idea
Deborah Felsand one of my graduate students will be exploring this
Deborah Felshe is creating a wiki environment for video descriptions
Owen Milburnsorry. what is the peer description idea?
Deborah Felswhere people who want to do them, can upload them and share then
Faisal AnwarOwen , where are you??
Deborah Felswhere peers generate descriptions rather than a "professional"
Owen Milburnin toronto
Deborah HessionThat's a cool concept
Deborah FelsI think the education area is a prime area for experimenting with this
Deborah Hessionhmmm viral
Faisal Anwarthis is interesting dedorah... upload and share
Deborah Felsas you have a whole class that has knowledge of the subject matter
Deborah Hessionwho moderates?
Owen Milburnthat sounds like a good thing to explore
Deborah FelsFaisal, yes
Anastasia Cheethamthis wiki idea is interesting: how exactly would it work?
Deborah FelsDeborah, who moderates is a good question
Owen Milburnas a sighted tv viewer, i always felt voice overs were invasive and wondered how blind people could possibly enjoy the experience.
Sambhavi ChandrashekarI am sure peer description will become popular, like so many other web 2.0 ideas
Deborah Felswe were going to explore different moderator ideas
Cindy Schatkoskiwe are using a wiki here for a residency program that we're currently running
Deborah Felse.g., no moderator, teacher moderated
Deborah Felsstudent moderated, etc.
Faisal Anwari want to know about it...
Deborah HessionI guess I mean more like who verifies the information
Owen Milburnthe odd job jack episode 3# didn't feel that way to me
Deborah FelsOwen, this is a common thought
Anastasia Cheethamowen, try watching tv with your eyes closed
Deborah Felshowever, with the 1st person version the sighted participants were very entertained
Cindy Schatkoskiwe are a closed group, so we have to go on faith that the content is valid.
Deborah Felsand actually perferred it over the original audio track
Faisal Anwarso is it live broadcasting or you have a data base of resources??
Deborah Felsand would be willing to pay to have it.
Deborah Hessionright
Owen Milburnit just makes me think there must be a better, more entertaining way of doing it. Odd Job Jack 3 seems to be at least testing that idea
Sambhavi ChandrashekarCindy, such collaborative environments actually work well
Deborah FelsFaisal, are you speaking about the wiki or about Cindy's stuff?
Sambhavi ChandrashekarThere is no need for verification, moderation etc
Deborah FelsOwen that is what we are doing
Deborah FelsI want to carry out longer term experiments to see what happens over a number of shows
Cindy Schatkoskiyes, exactly. that's what we're finding
Faisal Anwari guess, both sorry i lost the track.:(
Deborah Felswill blind audiences still like or not, or get to like it
Cindy Schatkoskiwe hope to create collaborative texts
Deborah Felsand will sighted audiences still like it
Cindy Schatkoskii must admit, i haven't been active on our wiki, so i can't update how that's going
Deborah FelsCindy, great
Jennison AsuncionSince I have been so used to having people describe things to me in the 3rd person for movies, the 1st person is a totally different experience. As noted though, it is subjective. I personally prefer
Faisal Anwarok, guys i have to go now..
Deborah Felsbye faisal
Faisal Anwarhave a nice week,
Deborah Felsthanks for you insights
Deborah HessionI have to get going...nice to hear about all this, please send me testing invitation
Deborah Felsas usual they were thoughtful and helpful
systemUser Faisal Anwar has logged out.
Jennison Asuncionlittle to know description, but again, that's just me. I like to have it on-call as needed.
Deborah Felsthanks deborah
Deborah Felswe will definitely be in touch
Anastasia CheethamI have to log off, too - I have a conference call at 4
Deborah HessionThank you!
Deborah Felsappreciate the offer
Deborah HessionBye
Deborah Felslove to get your advice on the ideas as well
Owen Milburni did try watching with my eyes closed. the second was more clearly a visual description, but the third was richer in entertainment value. my thoughts, anyway
Deborah FelsJenn, agree
Deborah FelsI tend to watch a lot of movies with description
Deborah Felsbecause I am always doing research
Deborah Felsand I like to have it available
systemUser Anastasia Cheetham has logged out.
Deborah Felsalthough, I tell you, having the last Star Wars movie from Darth Vader's perspective would be have made the movie much more interesting
Deborah Felsthe description was rather intrusive and boring
Owen Milburnha ha. good idea
Sambhavi ChandrashekarShall we say we are creating a new genre of entertainment?
Jennison AsuncionI think it would be a bit jarring, for example, if there was a murder scene, and the first-person was being used.
Deborah Felsactually the audio describer for Hamlet
Deborah Felscalls it a derivative art form
Owen Milburnthat's a very good point
Deborah Felswhich is an interesting
systemUser Chris Wemigwans has logged out.
Jennison AsuncionIt would be interesting to take something that would be less entertaining and more dramatic with the first-person and third-person desc, to see if there would be a different reaction in a focus group.
Deborah FelsJenn, you make an interesting point
Deborah Felsand I would dearly love to try some different genres
Deborah FelsI think that the creative team (with advice from blind consultants)
Deborah Felsshould make that decision
Deborah Felsjust like they do for other aspects of their work
Deborah FelsI really believe that they know their work best
Deborah Felsand what they are trying to convey
Deborah Felsgiving away the story is bad but making it entertaining is important
Deborah Felsyeah, I agree
Jennison AsuncionI've got to run as well. Sam can pass on my email address for any follow-up.
Jennison AsuncionI've got to run as well. Sam can pass on my email address for any follow-up.
Deborah FelsJenn
Deborah Felsthanks so much for you comments
Deborah FelsJenn, if you have some dramatic content that we could use
Deborah Felsthat would be amazing
Deborah Felstry it out
Sambhavi ChandrashekarThank you Jennison
Cindy SchatkoskiI have to run as well. This was very interesting!
Deborah Felseven better if you are the creator of it :-)
Deborah Felsthank cindy
Deborah Felsagain you have been very insightful
Deborah FelsI hope that everyone would be interested in helping to the next steps
systemUser Jonas Diamond has logged in.
Owen Milburni'd like to be of help, although i'm not sure how i can be.
Sambhavi ChandrashekarHow could we help, Deb?
Deborah FelsWell at the moment we will be working on the 3 episodes of OJJ and we would love people to preview and then be willing to test what the writers come up with
Deborah Felswe will be trying different character rather than only the main character
Deborah Felsthe second thing is if anyone is making any content that they would consider submitting to the process (particulary dramatic content)
Deborah Felsthat would be great
Owen Milburni'd be happy to help with that if i am avaialble. please send me more information
Sambhavi ChandrashekarI presume you are testing with sighted as well as blind persons, De
Deborah Felsnow the question for Jonas is why did you do it that way
Jonas DiamondWe have also posted 13 episodes in 3rd person on the OJJ Describe site
Sambhavi ChandrashekarYour testing is more for user experience; is the process different from usability testing?
Deborah Felstry again for Jonas, so why did you use 3rd person instead of 1st for these 13 episodes?
Jonas Diamondschedule, schedule and schedule.
Deborah Felswe will use some modified user testing protocols
Deborah Felsbut this is long term testing so we will probably come up with some new protocols as well
Sambhavi ChandrashekarIt was less expensive and less time consuming, right JOnas?
Jonas DiamondThe network didn't tell us they wanted description until well into the season and at that point we didn't have time to record the 1st person talent
Jonas DiamondThough, I think I would've overcome the union and budget issues
Deborah Felswhat about the cost?
Sambhavi ChandrashekarThank you for that clarification about user testing, Deb
Sambhavi ChandrashekarI would like to know more later
Jonas DiamondI think I would've overcome the cost issue
Deborah Felsbut Jonas produced the description in house
Deborah Felsso he still maintained creative control over what was written/recorded
Jonas DiamondI don't know if we could've worked with a 3rd party provider given we were delivering episodes the week they went to air. Yikes!
Deborah Felsfrom cost perspective, Jonas, do you think it was comparable to sending it out?
Deborah Felsand the timing too
Deborah FelsI think they pulled a couple of all nighters on that one
Jonas DiamondI think cheaper... I don't pay well ;-)
Deborah Felsso there may actually be a business case for the in-house part
Deborah Felsregardless
Deborah Felsand my experience is that creative people care a lot about their work
Deborah Felsand have excellent quality control mechanisms
Sambhavi ChandrashekarWhere does Canada figure in popularity/availability of audio description on TV?
Deborah Felsnot that 3rd parties do not but it is not the same
Jonas DiamondYes I think there definitely is. However, we have the luxury of having a sound studio, engineer, and writer onsite
Deborah FelsSam, Canada is actually ahead of the legislation game
Deborah Felsthe US canned their legislation awhile ago
Deborah Felswhereas in Canada it is mandated as part of the licensing requirements for broadcasters
Deborah FelsJonas, agreed. Not everyone has that available to them
Jonas DiamondThe price for description from a 3rd party can range from $1k-$3 per half hour so there is no standards yet like cc
Deborah Felseven the W3C has taken off of their priority lists
Deborah Felsand only made it recommended
Deborah Felsthe reason this happened is because the regulators said that there is not enough evidence of its benefit
Sambhavi ChandrashekarWonder what prompted W3C to do that?
Deborah Felshowever, this also means that there is opportunities to play with style, standards, etc.
Sambhavi ChandrashekarJonas, that's good money. When's the next audition ;)
Jonas DiamondWe are considering offering it as a side business as it is such good money and no one has a real handle on it...
Deborah Fels:-)
Deborah Felsyeah, Jonas
Sambhavi ChandrashekarSo, we are building evidence that W3C thinks is lacking
Deborah Felsyes, I hope so
Deborah Felsand the US FCC as well
Deborah Felsthere is so little published on this subject
Deborah Felsit is really pathetic
Deborah Felsand unlike the Deaf culture lobby, the voices of the advocates for blind consumers are not loud enough
Deborah Felsor willing to spend $ on court cases
Sambhavi ChandrashekarI can feel your passion for this subject, Deb
Deborah Felswell there is much to do from a research point
Deborah Felsbut there is also lots of advocacy work to do
Deborah FelsI want to give the advocacy people stuff to work with
Sambhavi ChandrashekarGood thought
Deborah Felsbut I also believe that there is a very interesting and possibly new approach to creative work
Sambhavi ChandrashekarIt was nice to see you bringing the research perspective and Jonas the business perspective for the same issue
Deborah Felsok, Sam et al, I need to head out
Deborah Felsmy parking meter will be finished soon
Sambhavi ChandrashekarThank you soooo much Deb and Jonas, this was great
Deborah Felsand it looks as though there are only 3 of us on
Deborah Felsyou are welcome
Jonas DiamondOur pleasure
Deborah Felsthanks sam for organizing this
Deborah Felsyes, our pleasure
Owen Milburnthanks for your insight. i certainly learned a lot
Sambhavi ChandrashekarPlease join us next week when Anastasia will take us through Transformable media
systemUser Bruce Naokwegijig has logged out.
Deborah Felsbye, bye
Sambhavi ChandrashekarBye and thanks again
systemUser Owen Milburn has logged out.
Sambhavi ChandrashekarBye everybody else
systemUser Deborah Fels has logged out.
Sambhavi ChandrashekarTill we meet again next week ...
systemUser Jonas Diamond has logged out.
Last Updated on Friday, 13 April 2007 15:56