| system | User Sambhavi Chandrashekar has logged in. |
| system | User Bruce Naokwegijig has logged in. |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Hi Bruce! |
| Bruce Naokwegijig | hello everybody |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Welcome, Bruce |
| system | User Anastasia Cheetham has logged in. |
| system | User Deborah Fels has logged in. |
| system | User Deborah Fels has logged in. |
| Deborah Fels | Hi there and welcome |
| system | User Faisal Anwar has logged in. |
| Deborah Fels | thanks sam for putting up the chat |
| Faisal Anwar | hello |
| Deborah Fels | good to see so many people here |
| Deborah Fels | Jonas is just being interviewed but he will be here momentarily |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | You are welcome, Deb! |
| Cindy Schatkoski | hello |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Hi Cindy |
| system | User Deborah Hession has logged in. |
| Deborah Hession | ello |
| system | User Jennison Asuncion has logged in. |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Hi Debbie and Faisal, good to see you participating from Banff |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Hi Jennison |
| system | User Vera Roberts has logged in. |
| Deborah Hession | Thanks, it's great to have a chat room with a view..haha |
| system | User Jonas Diamond has logged in. |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Hi Jonas |
| Jennison Asuncion | Hello, Just getting use to using JAWS in this dynamic environment ;-) |
| Jonas Diamond | Good to see everyone. Lets get started. |
| Deborah Fels | Did everyone get a chance to look at the content that we posted? |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Yes |
| Deborah Hession | Yes |
| Faisal Anwar | yes, briefly |
| Deborah Fels | If you didn't we posted up a couple of links to sample clips that we have been working with |
| Bruce Naokwegijig | I'm still trying to get it. |
| Deborah Fels | these clips contain examples of video description in 3rd person and 1st person |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Like I wrote, everyone can even now open ATutor in another browser window and have a look |
| Deborah Fels | also in the previous workshop, we did a screen movie of the software used |
| Deborah Fels | this software can be used in a live and production environment |
| Deborah Fels | We also posted the process that we have been exploring |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Do you mean you used the same software for both Live Describe and Audio Description of video? |
| Deborah Fels | because Smiley Guy Studios is producing the video description in house |
| Cindy Schatkoski | i can see why first person would be much more difficult |
| Deborah Fels | what this means is that they have control over who writes the script |
| Cindy Schatkoski | i did like it better though |
| Deborah Fels | how it is recorded and produced. |
| Deborah Fels | the other really important benefit is that the video description track |
| system | User Smriti Dev has logged in. |
| Deborah Fels | is mixed with the original audio track in the master mix |
| Deborah Fels | that means that volume levels are controlled for all audio sources |
| Cindy Schatkoski | oh, so it can't be pulled out? |
| Cindy Schatkoski | yes |
| Deborah Fels | Cindy, no they are still separate audio tracks |
| Deborah Fels | but the mix is done at the master so that quality is |
| Deborah Fels | controlled there |
| Deborah Fels | normally video description that is done after the show is made is added onto a copy of the master |
| Deborah Fels | and this makes audio level control more difficult |
| Deborah Fels | does that make sense? |
| Deborah Hession | yes |
| Cindy Schatkoski | yes, i understand |
| Jonas Diamond | the real key is we control the script and voice |
| system | User Chris Wemigwans has logged in. |
| Deborah Fels | in addition because audio description is interpreted |
| Deborah Fels | someone must decide what stay in and what goes |
| Deborah Fels | we think that this is best done by the creative team with content knowledge and expertise on what they are trying to convey to an audience |
| Faisal Anwar | thats where the challange starts |
| Cindy Schatkoski | i would agree |
| Deborah Fels | a third party is really taking educated guesses |
| Deborah Hession | i absolutely agree with this |
| Jonas Diamond | however, adding this layer of production to the schedule has posed problems |
| Cindy Schatkoski | yes, this is much different than the live description because that is more 'factual' |
| Deborah Hession | It's a big can of worms |
| Faisal Anwar | but i would say this is much easier as its happening in post production |
| Deborah Hession | Because what you are trying to do is provide sound dimension |
| Deborah Hession | And this doesn't end at dialogue, or a quick story of the set and setting |
| Deborah Hession | indeed, faisal |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Is it easier to do third person than first person? |
| Jonas Diamond | Also ensuring the intent of the DV script is the same as the original writer is difficult |
| Jonas Diamond | Yes it is. When you add in the real talent you are stepping more in to the fictional world and want to keep it in line with the program |
| Jonas Diamond | The other problem is this is so new the unions don't understand it |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | It is interesting to note that people prefer entertainment to more factual description |
| Faisal Anwar | i feel there is a limitation in a software where you can or cannot do certain things in creative ways |
| Jonas Diamond | I think it depends on the genre of program but people like to be entertained! |
| system | User Jennison Asuncion has logged in. |
| Jonas Diamond | It's not the software as much as the writing, recording, editing and mixing |
| Deborah Hession | Perhaps with a factual description, the audience must then "translate" into the fiction space |
| Cindy Schatkoski | i don't understand the union dilema: what's that about? |
| Deborah Hession | While the entertaining version takes you right there |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | I mean they thought first person was less believable but more entertaining |
| Jonas Diamond | If you work with union talent you have to work with ACTRA and they have set rates which are unaffordable |
| Jonas Diamond | There is also the writer's union, if the writer is WGC |
| Cindy Schatkoski | so in the third person option, the talent wouldn't have to be union? |
| Faisal Anwar | i have a question here, why there is a need to add audio description? |
| Jonas Diamond | That is correct. It could be anyone (with a good voice I hope) |
| Faisal Anwar | regardless to first person or 2nd person |
| Jonas Diamond | I think the unions are really going to miss out this opportunity with the new CRTC mandates for audio description |
| Deborah Fels | Faisal you ask a good question |
| Deborah Fels | most producers do not consider what happens when you have an audio only track to listen |
| Deborah Fels | I think that if you try and watch a show without the visuals, you miss a lot |
| Deborah Fels | however, that is what our subjects have told us |
| Jennison Asuncion | Sorry, I was crashed out of the chat. I just now listened to the demo of the fight scene with the female voice and the first-person. As someone who has taken advantage of voice description at movies, |
| Deborah Fels | that may not be true for everyone |
| Faisal Anwar | i saw the video,s they are very well designed and developed and have all the entertaining components |
| Deborah Fels | if a show is made with an audio only audience in mind then it probably isn't necessary |
| Deborah Fels | aka radio dramas |
| Faisal Anwar | here you go, so i think the voice over is still missing the visual description. |
| Faisal Anwar | its not doing anything ACCEPT, adding some extra video noise... (i think) |
| Jennison Asuncion | my personal preference is the third-person description. It seemed less confusing since it was a different voice other than the actors. |
| Faisal Anwar | sorry audio noise |
| Deborah Fels | actually Faisal, I think that what is missing is the pieces of the narrative that are represented in only the visual domain |
| Deborah Fels | and there is quite a bit of it these days |
| Faisal Anwar | yeah i like it, its more casual, more creative |
| Deborah Fels | it is not necessary the visual information itself but what it contributes to the unfolding of the story |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Jennison, you have a good point there |
| Cindy Schatkoski | i personally also thought that the third person was easier to understand |
| Jonas Diamond | It is completely subjective and that is what we've learned in our research |
| Deborah Fels | Jennison you have a reaction that some people have |
| Deborah Fels | and one of the things that we really need to is a longitudinal study to see whether there is a change |
| Faisal Anwar | yes, Deborah you are right, audience missing the experience |
| Deborah Fels | over time |
| Jonas Diamond | I think it depends where and why you are consuming the audio description |
| Deborah Fels | most people have only been exposed to 3rd person |
| Deborah Hession | Have there been any considerations to expressing the "missing" visuals with additional sound effects, rather than description? |
| Deborah Fels | and will find the 3rd person more trustworthy |
| Deborah Fels | as a result |
| Deborah Fels | we are not sure whether this is a function of the narrative form or of the conventions people know |
| Jonas Diamond | We tried creating a sound library but it just made the audio track even more confusing |
| Deborah Fels | We also want to try and understand what people think is entertaining |
| Deborah Fels | a subject that we discussed last week but needs more discussion and thought |
| Deborah Fels | kind of a film studies thing |
| Deborah Fels | but one that is important |
| Deborah Hession | ok i'd be interested to hear results of that discussion |
| Deborah Fels | we also have the luxury and time to try and study some of these issues without the deadlines and pressure to deliver content |
| Jonas Diamond | We think as audio description the 3rd person works but as a potential standalone commercial product may need the added layer of storytelling that 1st person offers |
| Deborah Fels | so people's opinions here are very, very valuable |
| system | User Lindsay MacDonald has logged in. |
| Deborah Hession | In terms of audience testing, what was the environment? |
| Deborah Fels | What Jonas is talking about is a potential business case for audio description |
| Deborah Fels | where a totally new product can be made available to all consumers |
| Jennison Asuncion | One of the challenges for folks like myself who are blind, if using the first-person is, this person speaking dialogue at the moment, or is that description? |
| Deborah Fels | that is the audio-only track that can be listened to in the car, subway, whatever |
| Faisal Anwar | thats a good point,,, you are adding another content level on top of orginal script... wonder if you get the audio description from the same director |
| Deborah Fels | however, this must be entertaining |
| Jonas Diamond | We kind of wanted to make it seemless Jenn so you wouldn't know the difference |
| Jonas Diamond | We tried to have the same folks work on the description as the rest of the show but it is challenging schedule-wise |
| system | User Chris Wemigwans has logged out. |
| Faisal Anwar | right, other wise you guys should need to work with really good script writer/ entertainer |
| Deborah Fels | and one that has been trained on each piece of content |
| Deborah Hession | But Jonas is saying that would cause union/budget issues |
| Jonas Diamond | exactly Faisal. And that is where the unions factor in becuase the best are usually members |
| Deborah Fels | while the script writer/director/editor, etc of the show already have the intimate knowledge |
| Faisal Anwar | i mean, i feels... this comes down to the" person" who is adding this layer.. |
| Faisal Anwar | i.c |
| Deborah Fels | Faisal, there are at least 3 or 4 people involved |
| Faisal Anwar | can you get un-union members |
| Deborah Fels | it is not usually only 1 person like it is for captioning |
| Jonas Diamond | Of course. But most working actors/writers are in the union. |
| Deborah Fels | unfortunately video description is rather bogged down by the model used by closed captioning |
| Jonas Diamond | Right now, description is handled by 3rd party providers and they do not use union talent |
| Jennison Asuncion | One of the things I like about audio desc in theaters is the ability to shut it off by taking off the headphones and putting them back on, when I need describing. Is the on/off functionality built-in |
| Deborah Fels | I think we are trying to find ways to avoid that |
| Deborah Fels | because video description is interpreted |
| Faisal Anwar | so its more like a logistic issues, rather then a program?? |
| Deborah Fels | Jenn, you can do that on TV as well |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | How does use of first person impact rights and ownership? |
| Deborah Fels | Faisal it is not really only logistics |
| Deborah Fels | it is business (financial), creative and logistics |
| system | User Chris Wemigwans has logged in. |
| Deborah Fels | Sam, that is a good question |
| Deborah Fels | and one that must be addressed carefully |
| Deborah Fels | first person may be a separate character giving his/her own perspective |
| Deborah Fels | the 3rd person option has the same issues but no one has been paying attention |
| Deborah Fels | becuase it has been farmed out like closed captioning |
| Jonas Diamond | With non-union talent |
| Deborah Fels | anastasia any thoughts? |
| Deborah Hession | I'm interested in participating is future testing, in particular on the ipod platform |
| Deborah Fels | or bruce? |
| Deborah Fels | ah, Deborah this is wonderful |
| Deborah Fels | as part of the Culturall project we will be making a set of |
| Deborah Fels | 1st person versions of 3 shows |
| Faisal Anwar | is this a user perference to select first person or 3rd person ? |
| Deborah Fels | and delivering them as podcasts, etc. |
| Deborah Fels | I want to run a long term study for people to spend some time with the content and video description style |
| Deborah Hession | Great...include me please |
| Deborah Fels | for the study, Faisal, there will be both available |
| Deborah Fels | and we will have people in both groups and see how they fair |
| Deborah Fels | one of the things that we are working on is figuring out the method |
| Anastasia Cheetham | I think software to allow peer description is great as a tool to increase the amount of description out ther |
| Faisal Anwar | interesting.. |
| Deborah Fels | to test people |
| Deborah Fels | so far researchers have used multiple choice tests |
| Deborah Hession | Is it a "contest" to find out which way to choose, or to explore always having both (or both!) |
| Jennison Asuncion | I too would be interested in helping out, if it would be useful. |
| Deborah Fels | developed by sighted people |
| Cindy Schatkoski | it would be a very subjective test |
| system | User Owen Milburn has logged in. |
| Deborah Fels | I have a problem with multiple choice tests |
| Deborah Fels | and test that have been developed by sighted people |
| Deborah Fels | we have used methodologies that are more like usability testing processes |
| Deborah Fels | rather than trying to test people |
| Deborah Fels | good idea deborah |
| Deborah Fels | I am quite curious about the entertainment aspect |
| Deborah Fels | as well |
| Deborah Fels | because Odd Job Jack is about entertainment |
| Deborah Fels | rather than information |
| Faisal Anwar | yes |
| Deborah Fels | Anastasia brought up the peer description idea |
| Deborah Fels | and one of my graduate students will be exploring this |
| Deborah Fels | he is creating a wiki environment for video descriptions |
| Owen Milburn | sorry. what is the peer description idea? |
| Deborah Fels | where people who want to do them, can upload them and share then |
| Faisal Anwar | Owen , where are you?? |
| Deborah Fels | where peers generate descriptions rather than a "professional" |
| Owen Milburn | in toronto |
| Deborah Hession | That's a cool concept |
| Deborah Fels | I think the education area is a prime area for experimenting with this |
| Deborah Hession | hmmm viral |
| Faisal Anwar | this is interesting dedorah... upload and share |
| Deborah Fels | as you have a whole class that has knowledge of the subject matter |
| Deborah Hession | who moderates? |
| Owen Milburn | that sounds like a good thing to explore |
| Deborah Fels | Faisal, yes |
| Anastasia Cheetham | this wiki idea is interesting: how exactly would it work? |
| Deborah Fels | Deborah, who moderates is a good question |
| Owen Milburn | as a sighted tv viewer, i always felt voice overs were invasive and wondered how blind people could possibly enjoy the experience. |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | I am sure peer description will become popular, like so many other web 2.0 ideas |
| Deborah Fels | we were going to explore different moderator ideas |
| Cindy Schatkoski | we are using a wiki here for a residency program that we're currently running |
| Deborah Fels | e.g., no moderator, teacher moderated |
| Deborah Fels | student moderated, etc. |
| Faisal Anwar | i want to know about it... |
| Deborah Hession | I guess I mean more like who verifies the information |
| Owen Milburn | the odd job jack episode 3# didn't feel that way to me |
| Deborah Fels | Owen, this is a common thought |
| Anastasia Cheetham | owen, try watching tv with your eyes closed |
| Deborah Fels | however, with the 1st person version the sighted participants were very entertained |
| Cindy Schatkoski | we are a closed group, so we have to go on faith that the content is valid. |
| Deborah Fels | and actually perferred it over the original audio track |
| Faisal Anwar | so is it live broadcasting or you have a data base of resources?? |
| Deborah Fels | and would be willing to pay to have it. |
| Deborah Hession | right |
| Owen Milburn | it just makes me think there must be a better, more entertaining way of doing it. Odd Job Jack 3 seems to be at least testing that idea |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Cindy, such collaborative environments actually work well |
| Deborah Fels | Faisal, are you speaking about the wiki or about Cindy's stuff? |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | There is no need for verification, moderation etc |
| Deborah Fels | Owen that is what we are doing |
| Deborah Fels | I want to carry out longer term experiments to see what happens over a number of shows |
| Cindy Schatkoski | yes, exactly. that's what we're finding |
| Faisal Anwar | i guess, both sorry i lost the track.:( |
| Deborah Fels | will blind audiences still like or not, or get to like it |
| Cindy Schatkoski | we hope to create collaborative texts |
| Deborah Fels | and will sighted audiences still like it |
| Cindy Schatkoski | i must admit, i haven't been active on our wiki, so i can't update how that's going |
| Deborah Fels | Cindy, great |
| Jennison Asuncion | Since I have been so used to having people describe things to me in the 3rd person for movies, the 1st person is a totally different experience. As noted though, it is subjective. I personally prefer |
| Faisal Anwar | ok, guys i have to go now.. |
| Deborah Fels | bye faisal |
| Faisal Anwar | have a nice week, |
| Deborah Fels | thanks for you insights |
| Deborah Hession | I have to get going...nice to hear about all this, please send me testing invitation |
| Deborah Fels | as usual they were thoughtful and helpful |
| system | User Faisal Anwar has logged out. |
| Jennison Asuncion | little to know description, but again, that's just me. I like to have it on-call as needed. |
| Deborah Fels | thanks deborah |
| Deborah Fels | we will definitely be in touch |
| Anastasia Cheetham | I have to log off, too - I have a conference call at 4 |
| Deborah Hession | Thank you! |
| Deborah Fels | appreciate the offer |
| Deborah Hession | Bye |
| Deborah Fels | love to get your advice on the ideas as well |
| Owen Milburn | i did try watching with my eyes closed. the second was more clearly a visual description, but the third was richer in entertainment value. my thoughts, anyway |
| Deborah Fels | Jenn, agree |
| Deborah Fels | I tend to watch a lot of movies with description |
| Deborah Fels | because I am always doing research |
| Deborah Fels | and I like to have it available |
| system | User Anastasia Cheetham has logged out. |
| Deborah Fels | although, I tell you, having the last Star Wars movie from Darth Vader's perspective would be have made the movie much more interesting |
| Deborah Fels | the description was rather intrusive and boring |
| Owen Milburn | ha ha. good idea |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Shall we say we are creating a new genre of entertainment? |
| Jennison Asuncion | I think it would be a bit jarring, for example, if there was a murder scene, and the first-person was being used. |
| Deborah Fels | actually the audio describer for Hamlet |
| Deborah Fels | calls it a derivative art form |
| Owen Milburn | that's a very good point |
| Deborah Fels | which is an interesting |
| system | User Chris Wemigwans has logged out. |
| Jennison Asuncion | It would be interesting to take something that would be less entertaining and more dramatic with the first-person and third-person desc, to see if there would be a different reaction in a focus group. |
| Deborah Fels | Jenn, you make an interesting point |
| Deborah Fels | and I would dearly love to try some different genres |
| Deborah Fels | I think that the creative team (with advice from blind consultants) |
| Deborah Fels | should make that decision |
| Deborah Fels | just like they do for other aspects of their work |
| Deborah Fels | I really believe that they know their work best |
| Deborah Fels | and what they are trying to convey |
| Deborah Fels | giving away the story is bad but making it entertaining is important |
| Deborah Fels | yeah, I agree |
| Jennison Asuncion | I've got to run as well. Sam can pass on my email address for any follow-up. |
| Jennison Asuncion | I've got to run as well. Sam can pass on my email address for any follow-up. |
| Deborah Fels | Jenn |
| Deborah Fels | thanks so much for you comments |
| Deborah Fels | Jenn, if you have some dramatic content that we could use |
| Deborah Fels | that would be amazing |
| Deborah Fels | try it out |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Thank you Jennison |
| Cindy Schatkoski | I have to run as well. This was very interesting! |
| Deborah Fels | even better if you are the creator of it :-) |
| Deborah Fels | thank cindy |
| Deborah Fels | again you have been very insightful |
| Deborah Fels | I hope that everyone would be interested in helping to the next steps |
| system | User Jonas Diamond has logged in. |
| Owen Milburn | i'd like to be of help, although i'm not sure how i can be. |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | How could we help, Deb? |
| Deborah Fels | Well at the moment we will be working on the 3 episodes of OJJ and we would love people to preview and then be willing to test what the writers come up with |
| Deborah Fels | we will be trying different character rather than only the main character |
| Deborah Fels | the second thing is if anyone is making any content that they would consider submitting to the process (particulary dramatic content) |
| Deborah Fels | that would be great |
| Owen Milburn | i'd be happy to help with that if i am avaialble. please send me more information |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | I presume you are testing with sighted as well as blind persons, De |
| Deborah Fels | now the question for Jonas is why did you do it that way |
| Jonas Diamond | We have also posted 13 episodes in 3rd person on the OJJ Describe site www.oddjobjack.com/describe |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Your testing is more for user experience; is the process different from usability testing? |
| Deborah Fels | try again for Jonas, so why did you use 3rd person instead of 1st for these 13 episodes? |
| Jonas Diamond | schedule, schedule and schedule. |
| Deborah Fels | we will use some modified user testing protocols |
| Deborah Fels | but this is long term testing so we will probably come up with some new protocols as well |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | It was less expensive and less time consuming, right JOnas? |
| Jonas Diamond | The network didn't tell us they wanted description until well into the season and at that point we didn't have time to record the 1st person talent |
| Jonas Diamond | Though, I think I would've overcome the union and budget issues |
| Deborah Fels | what about the cost? |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Thank you for that clarification about user testing, Deb |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | I would like to know more later |
| Jonas Diamond | I think I would've overcome the cost issue |
| Deborah Fels | but Jonas produced the description in house |
| Deborah Fels | so he still maintained creative control over what was written/recorded |
| Jonas Diamond | I don't know if we could've worked with a 3rd party provider given we were delivering episodes the week they went to air. Yikes! |
| Deborah Fels | from cost perspective, Jonas, do you think it was comparable to sending it out? |
| Deborah Fels | and the timing too |
| Deborah Fels | I think they pulled a couple of all nighters on that one |
| Jonas Diamond | I think cheaper... I don't pay well ;-) |
| Deborah Fels | so there may actually be a business case for the in-house part |
| Deborah Fels | regardless |
| Deborah Fels | and my experience is that creative people care a lot about their work |
| Deborah Fels | and have excellent quality control mechanisms |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Where does Canada figure in popularity/availability of audio description on TV? |
| Deborah Fels | not that 3rd parties do not but it is not the same |
| Jonas Diamond | Yes I think there definitely is. However, we have the luxury of having a sound studio, engineer, and writer onsite |
| Deborah Fels | Sam, Canada is actually ahead of the legislation game |
| Deborah Fels | the US canned their legislation awhile ago |
| Deborah Fels | whereas in Canada it is mandated as part of the licensing requirements for broadcasters |
| Deborah Fels | Jonas, agreed. Not everyone has that available to them |
| Jonas Diamond | The price for description from a 3rd party can range from $1k-$3 per half hour so there is no standards yet like cc |
| Deborah Fels | even the W3C has taken off of their priority lists |
| Deborah Fels | and only made it recommended |
| Deborah Fels | the reason this happened is because the regulators said that there is not enough evidence of its benefit |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Wonder what prompted W3C to do that? |
| Deborah Fels | however, this also means that there is opportunities to play with style, standards, etc. |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Jonas, that's good money. When's the next audition ;) |
| Jonas Diamond | We are considering offering it as a side business as it is such good money and no one has a real handle on it... |
| Deborah Fels | :-) |
| Deborah Fels | yeah, Jonas |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | So, we are building evidence that W3C thinks is lacking |
| Deborah Fels | yes, I hope so |
| Deborah Fels | and the US FCC as well |
| Deborah Fels | there is so little published on this subject |
| Deborah Fels | it is really pathetic |
| Deborah Fels | and unlike the Deaf culture lobby, the voices of the advocates for blind consumers are not loud enough |
| Deborah Fels | or willing to spend $ on court cases |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | I can feel your passion for this subject, Deb |
| Deborah Fels | well there is much to do from a research point |
| Deborah Fels | but there is also lots of advocacy work to do |
| Deborah Fels | I want to give the advocacy people stuff to work with |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Good thought |
| Deborah Fels | but I also believe that there is a very interesting and possibly new approach to creative work |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | It was nice to see you bringing the research perspective and Jonas the business perspective for the same issue |
| Deborah Fels | ok, Sam et al, I need to head out |
| Deborah Fels | my parking meter will be finished soon |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Thank you soooo much Deb and Jonas, this was great |
| Deborah Fels | and it looks as though there are only 3 of us on |
| Deborah Fels | you are welcome |
| Jonas Diamond | Our pleasure |
| Deborah Fels | thanks sam for organizing this |
| Deborah Fels | yes, our pleasure |
| Owen Milburn | thanks for your insight. i certainly learned a lot |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Please join us next week when Anastasia will take us through Transformable media |
| system | User Bruce Naokwegijig has logged out. |
| Deborah Fels | bye, bye |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Bye and thanks again |
| system | User Owen Milburn has logged out. |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Bye everybody else |
| system | User Deborah Fels has logged out. |
| Sambhavi Chandrashekar | Till we meet again next week ... |
| system | User Jonas Diamond has logged out. |
